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@gerrymcgovern

After casual brushes with #accelerationism and #longterminism I am extremely weary about this #degrowth idea I just learned about.

I fear that if I scratch the surface, there will be a promise of a large pile of dead bodies of the "out group"

#fascism got a bad rep, so it's slapping new labels on its core beliefs to recruit more enthusiastic grayshirts/redhats.

@n_dimension I think if you dig a bit into Degrowth, you'll find it's the opposite of tech bro ideologies like longtermism. Of course, every ideology can be abused, but Degrowth to me is about living within the constraints of our environment, living in a truly sustainable way. It is about giving all a decent life, which very much means a vastly reduced consumption model for the middle classes and the elites.

@gerrymcgovern

Cool!

I did a bit more reading.

I was always sceptical of the notion that we need ~3.5% growth in our #economy just to stay where we are.

The only thing in nature with infinite growth is cancer...and it stops only once it kills the host.

I'm sold

@n_dimension @gerrymcgovern

I have a very vivid memory of being confused about 3-5% annual growth. It was 5th grade and an introduction to economics class.

I put up my hand to ask what happens to car companies when people have enough cars and how many cars do people need? The teacher was completely confused about how to answer.

It was only a few weeks prior the same teacher had taught us about the ecological balance of nature... the wolves eat the deer, the deer eat the plants, and everything stays in balance.... then brings in this class about infinite growth and my little brain was trying to figure out the balance part.

It didn't seem weird to her that the laws of nature don't exist when it comes to exploiting nature.

@chu @n_dimension @gerrymcgovern Good for you!

@lispi314 @gerrymcgovern

Your comment made me ask the Moloch (#AI) about alternatives. When I asked about economic terms, I got "recession", "economic collapse " etc.

When I qualified it with "...used by proponents of #degrowth" I got a beautiful list;

Sustainable Decrease

Planned Reduction

Selective Contraction

Downscaling

Post-Growth

Prosperity Without Growth

Voluntary Simplicity

Steady-State Economy

Ecological Limits

Decoupling of Well-being from consumption

I like those better, Esp. "Steady state #economy"

@nina_kali_nina @gerrymcgovern @n_dimension I have heard objections from those pushing back on papers arguing for forced depopulation, which I find disgusting & unwarranted. But I get the impression that's an extreme *more* present in movie villains than reality.

Personally I like identifying as a degrowther since I'm keenly aware of how much computing's emissions can be directly blamed on our need for profit!

@alcinnz
I certainly haven't come across anything on forced depopulation. That would be worrying indeed. The Degrowth I see very much supports the rights of the Global South, and that some countries need to grow to achieve the basics.

Yes, computing emissions need to degrow, although they've been blown out of the water with AI. Goes to show where the true priorities of Big Tech lies.
@nina_kali_nina @n_dimension

@n_dimension @alcinnz @gerrymcgovern interesting, I never heard of those proposals in the books I have read, and the main website degrowth.info never mentions anything like that? I wonder if it's a fringe branch...

Edit: I've searched for a few papers mentioning degrowth and population, and all of them mention that someone(no citations??) calls for population control but it's a bad idea and we basically all should be feminists and that will help (somehow) and even if not it's still a bad idea.

@nina_kali_nina @n_dimension @gerrymcgovern I've heard on a podcast that such a paper exists, & that's what turned the host against it (he's shown scepticism about degrowth elsewhere too) without realising that it's an extremist version of it. Turns out he's fine with the non-extremist version.

https://xenetwork.org/ets/episodes/episode-211-doomers-vs-transitionistas/

I also occasionally hear overpopulation concerns from the peanut gallery who has no idea what they're talking about!

@mysteriarch @nina_kali_nina @gerrymcgovern @n_dimension Degrowth advocates usually point out that degrowth would actually require certain forms of growth, as it's an overall restructuring. And I think a big part of that would be reversing the current flow of wealth from poor countries to rich ones.

@foolishowl @mysteriarch @nina_kali_nina @gerrymcgovern @n_dimension The entire world economy need to shrink to less than half its current size, but while that happens, we need to grow a few sectors of the economy while completely shutting down others.

@btschumy
I agree, it will be hugely challenging. I think it's opportunity will come after a major collapse. There's a lot more preparation and planning needed.
@nina_kali_nina @n_dimension

@alcinnz

We could have one more.

A ten year trial across all OECD countries.

@btschumy @nina_kali_nina @gerrymcgovern @n_dimension @Christo

@EricLawton @alcinnz @btschumy @nina_kali_nina @gerrymcgovern @Christo

A 10 year #UBI trial across multiple #OECD just sounds like kicking the can down the road.

I can already tell you what it's going to find; happier people, stimulated economy, saving in cost on social support services and crime.

@EricLawton @alcinnz @btschumy @nina_kali_nina @gerrymcgovern @Christo

Whoa!

That is an Insightful comment!

A trial marriage that goes for 10 years...
Is a marriage!